How to Drive Community Engagement (Live Q&A)

00:00:00:22 - 00:00:26:26 Joshua Zerkel Well. Hello and welcome. I'm Josh Zerkel, head of marketing and community here at gradual. I've spent about 20 years building community programs, including at Asana and Evernote, and I was actually a gradual customer before joining the team. If you are new to gradual, it is the all in one platform for community events and customer engagement, helping teams bring those experiences together in one central spot to build real customer context across the business.

00:00:26:28 - 00:00:47:22 Joshua Zerkel Today's session is a live Q&A with me. Focus on community engagement. When you registered, you submitted some great questions. So I've grouped them into a few themes that will walk through together. Before we jump in, just a reminder. If you have questions, you can drop them in the chat and if you want to, we can even discuss them live.

00:00:47:25 - 00:01:11:00 Joshua Zerkel Again, I just want to level set. So what does engagement actually mean? Engagement is not just activity. It's members consistently finding enough value in your community program to participate, to contribute, and to return to your program over time. So instead of asking how do we get people to click more? Or how do we get people to access more of our resources?

00:01:11:01 - 00:01:33:20 Joshua Zerkel I think it might be more useful to ask, how do we create experiences in our community that people find valuable enough to return to? So that is the level that will be setting today for how we think about community and engagement. So a few of the questions that we received kind of fell into some themes. So I'll go through them theme by theme.

00:01:33:20 - 00:02:00:22 Joshua Zerkel And then if you have more questions along the way. Feel free to ask them. So the first theme, a few of the questions that we received were really asking something really similar, which is how do we get people to participate instead of just joining and then disappearing? That is a very good question. And for any of us who have ever run any community programs or any customer facing programs, of course you want people to show up, but we want them to do stuff once they're there and then we want them to come back again.

00:02:00:24 - 00:02:21:04 Joshua Zerkel And that is one of the hardest parts of building a community, because participation just doesn't happen automatically. This is not a you build it, they'll come and they'll stay. Type of situation. You can have really great technology or platform like gradual. You can have awesome content that you've spent time creating, and you can even have a lot of members.

00:02:21:04 - 00:02:48:03 Joshua Zerkel But if people don't find value in interacting with each other and with the program, it's very, very difficult to build any sort of momentum. So I think one mistake teams make is optimizing for activity rather than interaction. What do I mean by that? So getting someone to click on something is not the goal. Getting one member to create value for another member is community.

00:02:48:03 - 00:03:13:27 Joshua Zerkel Programs are not one way. They're meant to be interactive. And in order to do that, you need to create a value exchange between members, because that's where community really begins. So when someone joins your community, the question I think shouldn't be what button do we want them to click? Instead, it should be something like, how do we get them to find another person who's working through a similar challenge that they are?

00:03:13:27 - 00:03:40:28 Joshua Zerkel How do we help make that connection? Because that is the beginning of the community. Flywheel. One helpful interaction leads to another and then begets another. Over time, then members really be creating value for each other rather than every interaction in the community. Depending on the work, the central activities that the community team is pushing out. You'll still need to do those, but they need to live alongside a robust set of interactions that members have with one another.

00:03:41:01 - 00:04:11:00 Joshua Zerkel Your role, if you're leading a program, is not to manufacture every conversation, every prompt, forever, because you'll never be able to do it indefinitely. Instead, it's to create the conditions where those conversations happen naturally. Now, in my career, I've seen a lot of teams struggle with this. I've struggled with this myself, and I think it's because the instinct from the the program leadership side is to create more.

00:04:11:00 - 00:04:40:04 Joshua Zerkel We have the ability to offer more to members, so why can't we just do that? More discussion prompts, more announcements, more events, more resources, blah blah blah. These things can help. Of course, people want content and resources to engage with, but most engagement problems are not solved by just publishing more content or creating more resources. I just don't think it works that way because there's no shortage of content for for those of us who are trying to consume content to get.

00:04:40:06 - 00:05:03:01 Joshua Zerkel So those things help. But I think the bigger problem is solved by making it easier for your members to find relevance in the community. People don't come back to your community because there's hundreds of discussions. They come back because they found someone who helped them solve a problem or taught them something new, or gave them an idea for how they could tackle the challenge of their own.

00:05:03:01 - 00:05:24:26 Joshua Zerkel Or maybe just simply, as they thought, other people who were having similar challenges to them and they didn't feel so alone. So that's why I think it's useful to spend less time thinking about content calendars, although of course you need one. But it's more important to think about how you really foster and create that interaction between members. So a few tips.

00:05:24:26 - 00:05:44:01 Joshua Zerkel So you need to start with one meaningful first action. I think a lot of communities, the first thing they ask you to do is go introduce yourself in the forum. But that is not really creating any value for that member. The first thing a member does should feel obvious, and it should feel really worth it to them. It should add value.

00:05:44:03 - 00:06:09:26 Joshua Zerkel So don't ask them to figure out where to begin. You have to guide them in one clear path into the community, where they see value right away. And the first action shouldn't just be a checkbox, it should increase the chances that another member could respond or share an experience or start a conversation. Or maybe it's something that the new member can do to respond to someone who's already there.

00:06:09:28 - 00:06:27:15 Joshua Zerkel I think it's also useful to think about how you can lower the level of expertise required to participate. I think in a lot of communities, people come there. They don't have the answer yet, and they shouldn't have the answer in order to participate. That should be optional. One of the most valuable contributions is people saying, hey, I'm just I feel the same thing.

00:06:27:15 - 00:06:46:00 Joshua Zerkel I'm running into the same problem or, oh, that's an interesting way to think about it. We're asking just a good follow up question. Like, you don't need to be an expert in order to do those things. And I think for new members, guiding them towards existing conversations where value is already being created by members, there's a lot easier.

00:06:46:01 - 00:07:12:06 Joshua Zerkel It's easier for them to join a discussion that's already active, then for them to start a brand new thread. The number of communities that I've joined were. One of the first instruction is start a new thread with your biggest concern. That will lead to like zillions of threads. Like when maybe some college consolidation is better and easier for people to navigate that momentum when there's activity happening within existing threads, then creates more momentum and it attracts even more momentum after that.

00:07:12:08 - 00:07:41:14 Joshua Zerkel And then I think for for you as a program leader, reinforce the behaviors that you want to see in your community. So when members ask useful questions or help one another, or they share something that other people are responding with, recognize those contributions, award them with a badge reply in their post, thanking them. There's lots of ways that you can just acknowledge people's contributions, because when you do that, you are teaching the community what really good participation looks like.

00:07:41:16 - 00:08:04:06 Joshua Zerkel So just a couple of examples of this in action. So let's say that you have a community that's centered on your members helping one another peer support. So let's say if someone joins and they're trying to solve a problem, you should make it really easy to direct them towards a discussion on that topic. Even something as like encouraging them to reply.

00:08:04:08 - 00:08:24:04 Joshua Zerkel Hey, join the community. Find a topic that's solving a problem that you have yourself, and then encourage them to to respond with something like, hey, I'm running into the same issue. Has anyone found a good approach that starts that conversation between members? They don't need to be the expert in that case in order to participate. They just need to be there and be present.

00:08:24:06 - 00:08:47:04 Joshua Zerkel And that can have a tremendous amount of value. Maybe you have a more product focused community, so maybe you guide new members towards an already active roadmap discussion where people are talking about features. Maybe the threat is what feature would save you the most time and why? So the prompt is already in the question, giving them some food for thought for how they might want to respond.

00:08:47:06 - 00:09:19:02 Joshua Zerkel The nice thing about this is that people don't need truly deep product knowledge in order to answer a simple question like what feature would say be the most time? They simply just share their perspective and they'll often discover that other customers are solving similar problems. So regardless of how you are thinking about your community, having a very clear first step of having your members either participate in or create one meaningful first interaction is absolutely critical.

00:09:19:04 - 00:09:45:11 Joshua Zerkel Just asking them to go and introduce themselves. Does anybody care who reads those introduction threads? And once I respond there and I post my profile, what's supposed to happen next? So really thinking about that true interaction, how you could foster it is critical. But the next, next challenge from there is of course making sure that first interaction is not the last one because you need people to come back.

00:09:45:12 - 00:09:58:24 Joshua Zerkel So a single good experience is valuable. That kickstarts the whole process of them being on the flywheel. But a community only becomes part of someone's routine when they have a true reason to come back.

00:09:58:26 - 00:10:22:27 Joshua Zerkel So that was the next theme of questions is, how do you get people to come back a second time? And solving the first problem of getting them there is challenge one. Challenge two is getting them to interact the first time. But beyond that, it's only a community if they continue coming back. And so this is one of the most important challenges that we as community building, community community builders face.

00:10:23:01 - 00:10:56:04 Joshua Zerkel Getting to someone to join your community in the first place is marketing. It requires awareness building and outreach to get them to come to your community. Getting to the comeback is something totally different, because that second visit and beyond is where you really start building that habit of community, instead of just creating a one time transactional interaction. So I think one mistake teams make is thinking of individual experiences within the community, rather than thinking about the member's journey.

00:10:56:07 - 00:11:21:22 Joshua Zerkel Every event, every discussion, every thread, every roundtable or office hour, whatever thing you do in your community can be planned independently, but members don't experience them that way. They experience it as a series of interactions that take place over time. If they come back at all, and the strongest community is the most effective ones aren't just collections. Grab bags of valuable experiences.

00:11:21:24 - 00:11:49:06 Joshua Zerkel They're designed so that one experience naturally leads to the next, and the next one after that, and the next one after that. That path helps people keep coming back. And I think in my experience, what I've seen as many teams struggle because every activity feels like its own finish line. The webinar ends, I respond to a thread, a course is completed, a discussion is answered, everyone finishes and then moves on to whatever the next thing is.

00:11:49:07 - 00:12:20:22 Joshua Zerkel But from the members perspective, that's where the journey ends. If every experience has a beginning and an end, members have to then decide again whether it's worth coming back and why. Communities, when done well, become habit forming spaces where each interaction creates a natural reason for the next one that follows it. And so a few thoughts here. Think about designing every experience rather than having an end.

00:12:20:24 - 00:12:43:04 Joshua Zerkel Think about, okay, what is the next step from here that we want people to do? Every event, discussion or resource should answer the question what should someone do after this? What should they do after attending this webinar? What should they do? After this discussion is closed, if the answer is nothing, you've missed an opportunity to direct them towards the next related thing.

00:12:43:07 - 00:13:06:01 Joshua Zerkel You don't want to directly toward something random. You want to direct them towards how they can deal with their knowledge. How can they meet other people that are having similar challenges, but you want to direct them? Another thing that I've noticed is building recurring formats instead of one off programs is something that a lot of community builders just miss, because it's easy to do an event or post in the forum once.

00:13:06:03 - 00:13:41:22 Joshua Zerkel Recurring office hours, roundtables that happen every month or quarter, or discussion threads that get posted every week. These types of recurring elements create expectations for your members to be able to understand. And then as they start understanding the cadence of your ongoing programs, people begin incorporating them into their routines and they start looking forward to them. It's also really okay in a community to reconnect members with things that happen before just because they weren't able to attend live, or maybe they missed participating in a conversation thread that's been closed.

00:13:41:26 - 00:14:03:07 Joshua Zerkel It's okay to redirect people towards those if they're still valuable and useful, so good discussions shouldn't disappear. Events, even if they're closed, they're not dead. They're just a different type of resource. Now, you can always invite people to participate in a forum thread related to a prior event and ask what they thought, or things they might want to learn the next time.

00:14:03:08 - 00:14:25:20 Joshua Zerkel There's just ways to get more life out of these things, and I encourage you to think about how you can leverage things that you already have to engage people more deeply. And then I think it's also important to close the loop, like if members contribute feedback or ask questions or participate in a program, you need to let them know what happened because of their contribution.

00:14:25:20 - 00:14:50:28 Joshua Zerkel This is especially true if you have a forum thread or a product feedback part of your community. People want to know that what they contributed, their ideas didn't just go into the ether. And so it's important for you to close that loop. If a new feature was created based in part on community feedback, once that feature is launching, you need to go back to the community and say, we heard you hear what you said, and here's the product that's being developed as a result.

00:14:50:28 - 00:15:15:04 Joshua Zerkel So just make sure to close that loop and then help relationships grow over time between members. One of the biggest reasons people return to community programs isn't just because of the content, it's because they know their people will be there. Whether they're going to see a familiar face at a webinar or an event, or they know a certain person is going to chime in when a type of forum post is created.

00:15:15:07 - 00:15:37:24 Joshua Zerkel Foster those relationships. It just makes things a lot more rich for the people who are participating. So a couple of examples of tying this theme of getting people to come back into action. So I alluded to this a little bit. Let's say that you have an event, a customer attends the webinar or an onboarding session or a training session.

00:15:37:26 - 00:16:01:28 Joshua Zerkel The next day, you send them an email with the recording and an invitation to join a discussion thread about how they're applying those ideas. Two weeks later, you invite them into another session, live or async, that builds on that same topic. Now each interaction is actually leading, building on, and going into the next one that follows it. So it's much more of a path rather than an endpoint.

00:16:02:00 - 00:16:29:24 Joshua Zerkel Each event is not its own thing, it's part of a greater whole. Let's take a peer relationships. Another critical part of many communities. Let's say that two members meet each other during an office hours session. Then they connect. Afterwards, they tell you how much they appreciate you hosting that session because they met one another. The next time you host a similar event, both of those people will likely register because they already expect that the person that they met will be there.

00:16:29:25 - 00:16:52:19 Joshua Zerkel And that is one of the most powerful retention loops that a community can create. Even better, maybe you feature one of those people at an upcoming event, and then of course, the person that they met is going to come along to that event because they want to see their friend or their new contact speaking.

00:16:52:21 - 00:17:16:17 Joshua Zerkel Meaningful, deeper interactions, regardless of the type of the next thing I challenge is the assumption. This is another theme that we got is that every member should engage in the same way. That is just simply not true. One of the themes that came up was, does and should or could engagement look the same for every type of community member?

00:17:16:19 - 00:17:37:02 Joshua Zerkel This is framed in this way in this question, how do you ensure busy executives get value from the community and stay engaged? If we're broadening this out from just executives, think this points to a much broader lesson. And that is I've seen a lot of community builders try to engage the entirety of their audience in exactly the same way.

00:17:37:08 - 00:18:00:27 Joshua Zerkel So to me, when someone asks our executives aren't engaged, what should we do? My question is then compared to who compared to practitioners, compared to customers who log in every day compared to your internal team? Like who are we comparing each of these audiences to? And I think the important thing to remember here is that community isn't one audience.

00:18:00:27 - 00:18:17:14 Joshua Zerkel Even if you have a product and you have a community around the product, and the people who are part of your community are using your product, those people aren't all exactly the same to one another. They probably have different roles. They might be in different geographic areas, might be at different levels in their career that might have different job titles.

00:18:17:19 - 00:18:51:26 Joshua Zerkel So community isn't just one audience, it's a collection of many audiences, many groups, probably each with different goals, different constraints or challenges and different definitions of value. A practitioner and end user trying to solve implementation challenges has very, very different needs than a customer executive thinking about strategy or a C-suite executive. So someone who's using your product every day will naturally engage differently than someone who is at a more senior level making quarterly investment decisions.

00:18:51:26 - 00:19:15:15 Joshua Zerkel So thinking about healthy engagement in your community, it'll look really different for those different constituencies of people. They're just very different populations. So when I get the question of how do I get our executives who are part of our community, to engage the same way that our end users who are part of our community do, they're not the same in community engagement won't look the same for them.

00:19:15:18 - 00:19:50:09 Joshua Zerkel Critically, I think it's important to not equate frequency of being in the community with value that people are getting from it. Frequency and value may be related, but they're actually not the same thing. Someone who visits every week isn't automatically more engaged than someone who joins a community event once a quarter. What matters more is whether those people who are participating at these different levels and different frequency, if they're getting value from the experiences that you've designed for them, because ideally, those experiences, they're designed to do something different.

00:19:50:16 - 00:20:17:02 Joshua Zerkel And I think teams really struggle because it's tempting to report one engagement number for the entire community. Average monthly active users, average post average event attendance. Average visits. But the average is. While useful at a broad level, they hide really important distinctions and differences in your community. A truly healthy executive community shouldn't look like a healthy peer support community.

00:20:17:02 - 00:20:42:13 Joshua Zerkel An executive community. They're not going to be in there every day, whereas your peer support community, because maybe they're using your product really actively. Maybe they're in their very frequently. That doesn't mean one has value and one doesn't. They're doing different things. And, you know, depending on your program, the program elements may dictate how often people are there, like a customer advisory board shouldn't look like an ongoing certification community.

00:20:42:14 - 00:21:17:25 Joshua Zerkel A customer advisory board might happen once a quarter, and a certification community may be running certifications every month or every week. And so the frequency in the engagement is going to really vary depending on your program, what you're trying to do. If everyone in your community, by some miracle, is engaging in exactly the same way, the same cadence, the same frequency, the same depth, there is a very good chance that while you're seeing activity, when you look under the hood, your members may not be getting the unique things they need based on the audience, the segment that they're in, because you're creating something very general.

00:21:17:27 - 00:21:38:09 Joshua Zerkel So I would take a few steps back. We're trying to solve this engagement problem and a few things. One, I would start with what is the job that each of those segments, each of those audiences, is hiring the community to do? Ask yourself, why is this group in the community in the first place? What are they trying to solve for?

00:21:38:10 - 00:22:04:13 Joshua Zerkel Is it technical problems? Is it building relationships with peers? Do they want to influence our roadmap? Are they trying to deepen their skills? That answer should shape the community experience you create for that specific segment. And once you figure out what the job that they want the community to do for them is, then you can design experiences around how each audience naturally works.

00:22:04:14 - 00:22:25:09 Joshua Zerkel Not everyone is going to participate in a form discussion, but they might attend events, whereas other people magnetite events, but only maybe once a quarter or two times a year. Make sure you understand your audience where they're comfortable, engaging, and how frequently is realistic for them. And I think it's really okay to remember that you can define success differently for each segment.

00:22:25:09 - 00:22:51:25 Joshua Zerkel These groups are all really different. The metrics you'd use for a customer education program might have very little in common with the metrics that you use for an executive, Cab or advisory community, and that's okay. These are very different parts of the program that are trying to do very different things. And so you should and probably will create very different programs and measure them differently.

00:22:51:27 - 00:23:21:02 Joshua Zerkel All right. Let's move on to our last question, which I think parmesan and sassy, both of you are asking, how should we measure engagement? How do you track it? How do you measure value? This is the perpetual question for all community builders. I love that question because it's one I think almost every community leader gets asked, usually by their manager, their VP, their CFO, their boss.

00:23:21:04 - 00:23:45:18 Joshua Zerkel I think one of the mistakes we make is answering that question way too quickly. Imagine I walk into my executive leader's office and say, great news. Event attendance is up by 40%. They're probably going to say, that's great. So what? And that is a fair question because just because of an attendance is up by 40%. They have no idea what that means to the business.

00:23:45:19 - 00:24:14:27 Joshua Zerkel It's my job, our jobs as community builders to be able to translate into real business value. So I think community teams stop measuring engagement and community program performance way too early because we stop at participation. We celebrate participation. But leadership and the rest of our businesses and organizations, they celebrate business outcomes. Maybe it's revenue, maybe it's retention, maybe it's adoption of our product.

00:24:14:28 - 00:24:47:14 Joshua Zerkel So our job in the community world is connecting those dots. Engagement is not the outcome. It's one of the earliest signals, a leading indicator that we're moving towards the business outcome that we're trying to achieve. But our goal and this is really important, is not to prove that people showed up to our community. We need to monitor whether people showed up to our community, because that tells us whether our program is providing value for our members.

00:24:47:20 - 00:25:11:16 Joshua Zerkel Our businesses need to have us explain to them why the business is seeing better results because of people showing up to our program. So we need to do that translation in that storytelling layer. Engagement metrics are very easy for us to collect on the community side. Logins, visits, replies, attendance, all of that. Those are important things that we need to know.

00:25:11:16 - 00:25:38:00 Joshua Zerkel But the business outcomes are often more difficult because typically those are owned by other teams. Success owns renewals, product wins, adoption, sales and pipeline marketing owns advocacy. Each of these come from a different spot within our organizations. So I think the tendency is for us community builders to naturally report on what we can measure instead of what the business is actually trying to understand.

00:25:38:01 - 00:26:01:16 Joshua Zerkel And so that's where the disconnect really happens. So when we talk about measuring value for members, I look at it as are they coming back. Are they telling us that community has been valuable for them? I think you can also do like, as you mentioned, qualitative or survey based, but I think it's more valuable to just see are at the continually returning.

00:26:01:16 - 00:26:28:21 Joshua Zerkel Are they participating in the things that are in front of them. Those participation metrics tell us with certainty whether this is valuable enough for them to spend their time on it. Then we need to translate that activity, them coming back into what the business is, actually hiring us as community people to do. So. When I think about measurement, I actually think about working backwards.

00:26:28:21 - 00:26:48:18 Joshua Zerkel So rather than starting with what are members perceiving as value? If I'm working for a company, my job is to create value for the business by creating value for members. So I work backwards, I'll say, instead of what community metrics should we track or what value should we track from members? I'll say, okay, what business outcome are we trying to influence?

00:26:48:25 - 00:27:17:09 Joshua Zerkel Let's just use, let's say, product adoption as an example. Then the question next becomes what customer behavior would we expect to see if adoption were improving? Maybe people attending some of our community trainings for onboarding, or maybe they're completing courses that are part of the community, or maybe they're asking implementation questions in the forum, or maybe they're connecting with other experienced customers for peer led guidance.

00:27:17:12 - 00:27:48:08 Joshua Zerkel Each of those is not a business outcome. Those are engagement signals that tell us we're creating programs that have value for members because they're participating in them. Then we can then see, okay, are those increasing? And then we can correlate that with the business outcome in this case product adoption. So our goal is to increase the value that members get so that they participate more to drive the behaviors that help our business, that we can then report out to our leaders.

00:27:48:10 - 00:28:06:27 Joshua Zerkel That is the connection that we're trying to make. So while it's useful to say, like, hey, is this valuable for members or are people showing up to our events, those are only valuable if they're in service of a bigger business goal. So let's just use one more example, because I know we're running short on time. Imagine you're running a peer support community.

00:28:06:27 - 00:28:35:06 Joshua Zerkel If I tell my leadership team, hey, we answered 500 questions this quarter in the forum. That's interesting. No one's going to be mad at that. But if I say instead questions in our community where answers twice as fast as via the support channel, customers who participated in the community opened fewer support tickets and their overall CSat improved. Those metrics help explain a business outcome in ways the rest of the business would understand.

00:28:35:08 - 00:28:59:13 Joshua Zerkel So that's the level of when we're thinking about how to talk about value and engagement and report on it. That's how I think about things. So when I talk about how to measure community engagement, I don't start with community metrics. I start with the business outcome. What are we trying to accomplish and then what customer behaviors do we need to drive to tell us we're moving in the right direction?

00:28:59:15 - 00:29:08:01 Joshua Zerkel Engagement isn't the outcome of the work. It's the evidence that the work is happening and that it's driving something useful.

00:29:08:03 - 00:29:14:19 Joshua Zerkel All right, I will pause there.

00:29:14:21 - 00:29:39:25 Joshua Zerkel Think so? Sam, glad you're enjoying the book. So if we take a step back. Think about these ideas. First design for member to member value because that's where community actually happens. Create journeys. Not one time activities because that's what gives people reasons to come back and then recognize that audiences create value in different ways. Things will look different from your different constituencies that are part of your program.

00:29:39:25 - 00:30:05:18 Joshua Zerkel And then make sure that you recognize that the community creates value in different ways, and that measurement of engagement is not the goal that is a part of our work, so that we can use that as the evidence that we're moving towards real business outcomes. That is how I think about building a truly engaged community, not just as a collection of tactics, which is what our constituents, our stakeholders, often see community as.

00:30:05:20 - 00:30:25:28 Joshua Zerkel But instead, it's time for us to start thinking about it as a system and all of these dots connecting within it. Before we wrap up, I'd be happy to take any more questions that you might have live.

00:30:26:01 - 00:30:47:27 Joshua Zerkel All right, well, I'll pause there. Hopefully this gives you a practical framework for thinking about engagement, whether you're launching a new community or trying to deepen participation in an existing one. Also along the recording after this, and if you want to continue the conversation after this event, please join us in the gradual community. There's a forum there where you can ask and answer questions for your peers.

00:30:47:27 - 00:31:05:08 Joshua Zerkel And if you'd like to see how teams bring all of this together, community engagement events all in one spot, we can show you how we do that at gradual. Just let us know and we be happy to have you on of our live demos. With that, I just want to say thank you for listening to me for half an hour.

00:31:05:09 - 00:31:14:15 Joshua Zerkel Thanks for spending time with us. I hope this was valuable. Good luck with building your own communities and we will see you in the gradual community. Take good care. Thank you all.